View Full Version : Mi16 Rebuild
Just stripped the Mi16 out of the crashed Dimma, so here's some pics...
Engine Itself
http://pix.octane.ie/mi16_engine.jpg
Engine in Bits
http://pix.octane.ie/mi16_bits.jpg
Cyl 2
http://pix.octane.ie/valve_2.jpg
Cyl 3
http://pix.octane.ie/valve_3.jpg
Cyl 4
http://pix.octane.ie/valve_4.jpg
This is just some shots looking into the intake ports on the front of the engine. I don't have much experience of this, but imho, this is a sick engine judging by the deposits and rust?
To add to these shots, the mount for the air->oil cooler on the front of the engine needs welding, it needs a starter motor, and it needs a new timing-belt side engine mount aswell as a tonne of new hoses, gaskets, a head gasket, head bolts, new bottom end bearings maybe.. new rings? All in all, is this engine going to be worth rebuilding in its current condition or should I just cut my losses and run? This is pretty much an open ended question to anyone who likes engines.. I'm not really pushed either way considering this motor cost me €100, and I could sell the cams for that ;D
What I'm possibly looking at is using a diesel bottom end and building a 2.1L Mi16 hybrid with a supercharger (wow!) so if the cylinders are too ****ed when I take the head off, this is probably all the better.. though it'd be a hell of a lot simple and cheaper to just clamp the charger to the existing 1.9 alloy block :(
crank_case
16-10-2004, 02:36 PM
I really think you should stick with the Mi16 Block if it can be rescued! most peugeot owners would kill to have the lightweight block! (which is what I gather you have from previous posts). The lower weight will outweigh any advantages a slightly increased capacity will give you and like you said, a lot simpler too. You should be able to get the parts you need for an Mi16 conversion pretty easily. Check out www.autofive.co.uk and www.pugspares.co.uk
I've ordered stuff from Autofive before and they're really good, they deliver pretty quickly too. Autofive don't list everything they sell on their site so its worth giving them a ring.
'Neat', [they have a strange web addy, somethinglike like neat.uk.com] have the worlds worst site but their prices are the best of the lot in my experience, very friendly to deal with too.
It is the alloy block, which is what makes it gold dust, but at the moment the signs aren't so good. Should have the head off in the next 2hrs or so, so I'll know more then. At the moment, the head is salvageable if I can find someone in Ireland that acid dips heads, so if anyone knows of someone who can do that, let me know.
I might ship it to the UK and get it ported over there and get the whole lot done while it's there.
busman27
16-10-2004, 08:11 PM
I really think you should stick with the Mi16 .
This is the only M16 worth a fcuk
I've got 2 Mi16's in my car.
Of course I'm talking about front calipers on a Cortina :'D :'D :'D
Yeah.. hillarious..
I whipped the cam cover off yesterday only to discover that the Mi16 uses an oddly sized Torx bolts to hold the head on so I couldn't remove it to check the cylinders, damn, but now it even seems like the cam cover seal hasn't held and there was some water which seems to have dripped along the oil spray bar and onto the cam lobes. Having sprayed them with some diesel it appears they're not quite as bad as they seemed at first, it seems to be rust deposits rather than rust itself more than anything BUT it does look like I'm going to need a new intake cam, not the end of the world, but not exactly encouraging either.
Here's some cam pics:
http://pix.octane.ie/cam_1.jpg
http://pix.octane.ie/cam_2.jpg
http://pix.octane.ie/cam_3.jpg
http://pix.octane.ie/cam_4.jpg
With the head actually whipped off, you can see why people go crazy to get their paws on these engines, they're mechanical porn. The hydraulic tappets are crazy [even if they do restrict the rpm you can go to] and each of the cams has an oil spray bar which dumps lots of oil onto the cams as they rotate. The valves themselves are also huge, and the big ass 'Mi16' logo on the cam cover is pretty damn cool compared to the normal '4FE-TE' sticker as used by Toyota.
That said, this engine is still probably headed for desctruction :(
http://pix.octane.ie/mi16_cams.jpg
PS. Big up to Jamo for lending me a set of Torx studs that Wexford Auto Factors want €90 for!! Anyone know a good place to buy tools online?
Yaaay, just got the head off [finally] and all the cylinders/pistons are perfect. No scoring in the cylinder walls or nothing and the head gasket appeared fine. The only problem was, with two of the cylinders having the exhaust valves open, they were like indiana jones style tombs packed full of giant spiders and beetles and ****.
McGuinn
19-10-2004, 11:04 AM
EOB, you recovering cars from canals and rivers? Is this how deperate you have become to be Ireland's leading Mi16 holder?
Not being mechanically minded or wishing to dis your obvious bargain there eob but wtf is an Mi16 and what is so special/rare about it ??
This guy is a tuning legend, he sums it up better than I ever could:
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm
lenny_mc
19-10-2004, 02:06 PM
id go for the rebuild - its so much fun rebuilding engines. Ive two rgv 2 stroke motors (race motors - nearly 70bhp for a 250 cc engine weighing about the same as a tin of carrots that run on an avgas 97 octane 2stroke oil premix) and a 1975 gl1000 (80 bhp monster - gear selector shaft and drum went fubar on it - need to split the cases and get under the crank to get to the gearbox!!) motor ready to be rebuilt over the winter
3cups
19-10-2004, 02:50 PM
Why not recondition a Honda engine?
/puts on flame suit...
For a start there'd be no need because it's a Honda engine which means:
A: It won't need fixing beyond a new oil filter.
B: You could just go out and buy one of the ten billion totalled Civic Type-R's in the country and whip the engine out of that.
C: Mitsubishi's MIVEC is the better engine.
D: They rotate counter clockwise which means you need a Jackson supercharger, Eaton M45 is clockwise.
Besides, I don't like VVTi powerplants and the way they deliver their power, and the biggest disadvantage of building a Honda engine is you have to fit it to a Honda afterwards...
busman27
19-10-2004, 03:45 PM
Thats telling ye cups. give up that ould restricted suzuki and get a real machine---- a Honda.
McGuinn
19-10-2004, 03:55 PM
D: They rotate counter clockwise which means you need a Jackson supercharger, Eaton M45 is clockwise.
Bollix.
Just mount it upside down. :D
You'd have to rotate the entire charger 180 degrees which would mean it'd be mounted around about where the passenger side front wheel should be, Honda's traditionally use the kick ass Jackson supercharger [gmc motorsport retail them in the UK I think?] which gets rid of all this pokey 9,000rpm power delivery bull****, and adds a dollop of torque and bhp for good measure.
AFAIK, the Jackson charger is what they're using on the supercharged Ariel Atom.
D: They rotate counter clockwise which means you need a Jackson supercharger, Eaton M45 is clockwise.
S2000 engine spins the right way. As does the new TypeR I think.
fizzy
20-10-2004, 12:30 PM
Are you gonna have to get those cams hardened again?
Sorry, I should've made myself clear. What I'm saying is this.. the ITR/Civic/MIVEC engine being front wheel drive have the engines mounted on the passenger side with the gearbox infront of the driver. This is actually the right place for the engine because if you crash with just you in the drivers seat, you want the ickle gearbox infront of you rather than a bit 1.8L engine. Another theory I have is that because the Civic/ITR are born RHD, the engine is on the passenger side to offset the weight of the driver, but that's just a theory.
In 205's/Corsa's etc, basically anything developed in Europe, the engine is on the drivers side. Now, while both engines rotate the same way, on the Euro cars, the drive pulleys are on the left of the engine rotating clockwise, on the Jap cars, the drive pulleys are on the passenger side rotating anti-clockwise.
This is my understanding on how it works, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong ;D
crank_case
20-10-2004, 03:04 PM
Why not recondition a Honda engine?
/puts on flame suit...
No seriously thats a great idea, but I'm just wondering if it can be done without major modifications. The all alloy version of Mi16 would be my first choice, partly because a lot of people have done this already, its a proven conversion that works, the parts are available, you don't need to buy a new gearbox, theres a wealth of information out there on how to do it and the added bonus of keeping the car all peugeot.
The problem is that Mi16s are obviously going to get rarer and rarer as the years go by. Eventually, I'd like to do an engine swap in my 205 GTi 1.6 (if I don't swap it for a Mk1 MR2 first) when I have a bit more cash but by that time I think getting my hands on a good Mi16 might be hard. I'd love to hear from anyone who has put another engine into a 205 such as a Ford Zetec or Rover K-Series unit (both far more practical, common, cheap and easily tuneable prospects compared to a Honda unit IMHO).
I'm mainly interested in engines that can be fitted easily with good potential for a substantial increase in performance. If I had to go down the route of seriously modifying the car to fit an engine though why not go the whole hog and just convert it to RWD with a Rover V8 upfront!
There's absolutely no way you'd fit a MIVEC or VTEC engine to the front of a 205 without major, major modifications. I can definitely see the benefit of Honda power pushing a Peugeot chassis but the modifications involved would be endless. You'd need custom downpipes, mounts, driveshafts, maybe even a custom or heavily modified subframe.
In short, you'd be better off taking the proven route and putting it in a Mini.
The whole 'but the Mi16's are all going to run out soon' argument has been running for years, and it's pretty damn stupid :D You can buy literally everything, I mean pistons, liners, the works, over the internet for the same price as you'd buy the parts for a 1.9 diesel.
Secondly, the only reason people invest in Mi16 engines is because they're cheaper than the 306 GTi-6 engine which is only starting to become readily available. Remember the 306 GTi-6 is an Mi16 with bigger exhaust valves [I'm told] and a six speed gearbox, and there's thousands upon thousands of GTi6's out there starting to dip below the £3000 mark in the UK. Currently, GTi6 engine and gearbox combinations can sell for ~€1000 a pop, which isn't bad all things considered. A 405 Mi16/BX 16V will traditionally only sell for about £300 - £1000.
Remember also that the 206 WRC had a turbocharged Mi16, so Peugeot still have faith in them ;)
lenny_mc
20-10-2004, 03:23 PM
If I had to go down the route of seriously modifying the car to fit an engine though why not go the whole hog and just convert it to RWD with a Rover V8 upfront!
Ive a morris minor at home waiting for one of them beasties :)
crank_case
20-10-2004, 03:47 PM
The whole 'but the Mi16's are all going to run out soon' argument has been running for years, and it's pretty damn stupid :D You can buy literally everything, I mean pistons, liners, the works, over the internet for the same price as you'd buy the parts for a 1.9 diesel.
Secondly, the only reason people invest in Mi16 engines is because they're cheaper than the 306 GTi-6 engine which is only starting to become readily available. Remember the 306 GTi-6 is an Mi16 with bigger exhaust valves [I'm told] and a six speed gearbox, and there's thousands upon thousands of GTi6's out there starting to dip below the £3000 mark in the UK. Currently, GTi6 engine and gearbox combinations can sell for ~€1000 a pop, which isn't bad all things considered. A 405 Mi16/BX 16V will traditionally only sell for about £300 - £1000.
Remember also that the 206 WRC had a turbocharged Mi16, so Peugeot still have faith in them ;)
Sounds good, I assume you can get similar power from the 306 unit as from a 405 Mi16 with a non-cat exhaust system?
Yep, you just whip of the nasty enviromentally friendly bits, whack in a decent chip and wahey, welcome to 180bhp. Throttle bodies can often see over 200bhp!! :O
crank_case
20-10-2004, 04:02 PM
I can see my dream 205 now! Seriously ported 306 GTi6 engine on throttle bodies, six speed gearbox (although perhaps sticking with the 1.6s low ratio box might be better). Completely standard outside, though I would probably have to go with bigger wheels to accomodate a big brake conversion (306 Gti-6 ones should do the trick). Shame in a way because I've got a complete spare set of 205 Gti 1.6 wheels in addition to the ones already on the car. Oh well, I suppose theres plenty of XRAD van drivers who would gladly take them off my hands.
No, what you want my man is the most poverty spec 205 petrol you can find, they weigh nothing and can be had for free, add 306 GTi-6 engine, 206 GTi-180 brakes (something like 288mm!!) and Peugeot 309 lower wishbones, shafts and a back axle (wider, more camber), then just go for a drive and slaughter performance cars everywhere*
*Does not include PD Golf
crank_case
20-10-2004, 04:36 PM
Yeah, that would be fun, but there is the dificulty of running fuel lines for fuel injection or just having to go with carbs. Easier to go with a fuel injected GTi and de-badge it. Actually theres no need, you'd be suprised how little attention a 205 GTi attracts these days!
3cups
20-10-2004, 04:41 PM
For a start there'd be no need because it's a Honda engine which means:
Besides, I don't like VVTi powerplants and the way they deliver their power, and the biggest disadvantage of building a Honda engine is you have to fit it to a Honda afterwards...
erm, isn't vvti a nisaan? thing?
vvti is a toyota thing. It's what they call the hair dryer under the bonnet of the yaris....
lenny_mc
20-10-2004, 05:02 PM
its also what they call the beams 4pot motor, the new celica motor etc. its basically a copy of vtec (honda) and mivec (mitsi). not sure what nissan call theirs...
crank_case
20-10-2004, 05:16 PM
Can't we just say that they all use Variable Valve Timing? (VVT) which isn't actually a copyrighted term and accurately describes such systems. Its not a Toyota trademark , GM, Renault and Rover use the same term for their engines variable timing systems (e.g Northstar V8 VVT, K-Series VVT). Variable valve timing is not a new concept, its been around for years, but Honda were among the first to use it in a meaningful way in a production car, hence V-TEC has become synonymous with VVT sytems in the same way that people use the term "Hoover" to describe a vacuum cleaner. Granted the actual implementation of the basic VVT concept is different from each manufacturer but the basic idea is the same.
VVTi on Toyotas merely refers to VVT with fuel injection which is a bit pointless for toyota to point out. I don't think theres many mainstream cars running on carbs these days!
vvt-i stands for vartiable-valve-timing-intelligent or some such ****e, what I should've said was vvt&L [variable valve timing & Lift], hands up who didn't know what I was on about? Anyone? No?
Laying fuel lines is a cinch, I've done on the XSi. You just cable tie them to the brake lines, using lengths of hosing robbed from an injected 405/306/106 etc with rubber fuel inj hose for the bends. Works like a charm, takes a few minutes and is an uncomfortable job though.
Yeah, that would be fun, but there is the dificulty of running fuel lines for fuel injection or just having to go with carbs. Easier to go with a fuel injected GTi and de-badge it. Actually theres no need, you'd be suprised how little attention a 205 GTi attracts these days!
The benefit of using something like a 205 Junior is, like I said, they weigh nothing as standard, so you've no stripping out electric window motors and sunroofs and stuff. Just plug and play a GTi subframe etc.. the only slight problem is that anything bigger than 15" wheels won't fit :(
As far as I can see, 309 GTi is a total bargain at the moment ;D
fizzy
20-10-2004, 05:24 PM
afaik the vvti system only really modifies the exhaust valve timings..
lenny_mc
20-10-2004, 05:43 PM
some of them modify the intake timing aswell - the beams motro with just exhaust vvt is just under 200 bhp, the beams motor with both intake and exhaust vvt is about 210 bhp
@ crankcase - agreed - they are all just different names on the same concept. I were just point out the different names for em, like harp and budweiser are both (debateable) beers, but are brewed differently
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